Question: 4 point bass shaker on a simrig using 5.1 audio

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So I'm going all out for this release of GT I have a t300rs and I want to purchase a race seat/simrig to add bass shakers for a kind of 4 point sim to simulate the 4 points of the car (feeling kurbs, bumps and nudges). Gt6 was pretty good with its 5.1 mixing--it worked on my ancient/cheapo JVC receiver pretty well. What I was wondering was how I would go about setting this up?? I would obviously need to mirror my 5.1 signal so I could have both sound and the bass shakers dealt with separately. My idea was, mind you my knowledge on these sorts of things is limited, was to get the 5.1 signal and use a surround sound decoder to split the channels up individually, use a low pass filter on each channel and then use an amplifier on each signal to make it usable for the transducers/shakers mounted on the 4 corners of the race seat.

If there's anybody with more knowledge on this sort of setup or the equipment required to pull it off I would greatly appreciate it and would totally wanna shake your hand and maybe buy you a beer or something lol I barely know what I'm talking about when it comes to audio and my little bit of research is all I'm going off of. I'm hoping I'm not the only one curious about doing this with psvr compatibility being in GT sport.
 
My old Denon receiver has three "Zones" for audio playback
Zone 1 - Your typical 7.1 setup
Zone 2 - A complete second set of 2 amplified channels from within the receiver
Zone 3 - A passthrough of the incoming signal, ready to be decoded by a second receiver.

So in my system I could use a second 5.1ch amp with only the bass shakers connected
they would have their own low-pass filters anyway, but some modern receivers will allow you to set a a filter on each channel anyway.

that's how I'd do it.
And now you have me thinking.....
 
So I'm going all out for this release of GT I have a t300rs and I want to purchase a race seat/simrig to add bass shakers for a kind of 4 point sim to simulate the 4 points of the car (feeling kurbs, bumps and nudges). Gt6 was pretty good with its 5.1 mixing--it worked on my ancient/cheapo JVC receiver pretty well. What I was wondering was how I would go about setting this up?? I would obviously need to mirror my 5.1 signal so I could have both sound and the bass shakers dealt with separately. My idea was, mind you my knowledge on these sorts of things is limited, was to get the 5.1 signal and use a surround sound decoder to split the channels up individually, use a low pass filter on each channel and then use an amplifier on each signal to make it usable for the transducers/shakers mounted on the 4 corners of the race seat.

If there's anybody with more knowledge on this sort of setup or the equipment required to pull it off I would greatly appreciate it and would totally wanna shake your hand and maybe buy you a beer or something lol I barely know what I'm talking about when it comes to audio and my little bit of research is all I'm going off of. I'm hoping I'm not the only one curious about doing this with psvr compatibility being in GT sport.
Start here. @Mr Latte can probably point you in the right direction.
 
Seems I was summoned here.... :)

@Roflmaot
A Coffee is good enough for me

Different ways to do this guys.
You can duplicate the HDMI or OPTICAL output to have one used for speaker audio and the other for tactile.
Various adapters can do this but it depends on the amplifier being used and its connections you are using what you may have to do. Get a good one as some may have lag/delay but I encountered this myself more so with HDMI. It so long ago that I was doing this I can't give you good recommendations for ones to buy.

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE but I can't confirm how well it works.

Going the Optical route and setting your console to output to BOTH HDMI & OPTICAL SPDIF output I believe is the best option. This way for the secondary Optical output for tactile you bypass complications like adapters having sync delay, or issues like 60Hz and 4K support to forward the HDMI signal to a display.

Remember you need a "sound adapter" not a USB based "soundcard"
Be sure to always pair 4ohm tactile with 4ohm compatible amplifiers.


Option 1 Digital:

Need a duplicator to create 2 sets of audio feeds from either HDMI or Optical outputs
One goes to TV the other into an AV Amplifier with tactile connected.

You can output either Stereo from console or Multichannel DD or DTS
With Digital Stereo use a ProLogic II based soundfield on AV Amplifier to generate multichannel from the stereo.
Or use A/B stereo switching if your amplifier supports two sets of stereo output.

With Multichannel DD or DTS then use auto detect on the AV Amplifier.
Take note that you may want to configure the AV Amplifier that it has NO LFE or SUB within your settings for speaker configuration. This will ensure all low bass goes to all channels.

If however you have a combination of typical/average tactile units but one larger or stronger unit like a BK Advance or you also want to incorporate a subwoofer to work with the tactile. Then you could configure the AV Amp to use the crossover feature set to around 40Hz. This will mean all bass frequencies from all channels below this (given value) will only go to the subwoofer .1 LFE output. This as many of you will be aware is usually not powered so needs its own amplification for a larger unit or subwoofer to be integrated.

Individual preference may be a factor also as some may find using Stereo only output from the console but having dual or often called A/B Stereo used on an amplifier (Front & Rear Stereo) can produce very good immersion too. You don't necessarily need 5.1 but it can bring unique sensation for rear and center channels with additional bass extension using the .1 output with larger/stronger shaker or subwoofer.

I found that having good audible bass working with the tacile gives a deeper/greater immersion in the way our bodys/brain combine each sensation.


Option 2 - Digital - Multichannel Analogue


To do this you need an adapter that converts the 5.1 DD or 7.1 DD into individual analouge outputs.
These often will have 3.5mm or RCA connections for all the channels. From here you can use multiple stereo amplifiers to amplify 2 channels at a time (eg Front Stereo = amp 1 / Rear Surround = amp 2 )

For a Multichannel all in one amplifier to be used it must have what is called "Multi Channel Inputs".
These are not common on todays models but can be found on mid - high range older models. I make example with models I have owned. The Sony 1200ES series or its larger brothers in the 2400ES or 5200ES. Amps like this once were quite high quality can be bought in abundance today for very little money. These from personal experience worked well for me and offer 4ohm switching within their setup menus. I still use my 10 year old Sony 5200 ES model which still works perfectly.

*Take Note Transducers like the ADX are much less demanding on an amplifier than shakers like a Buttkicker. Using multiple Buttkickers on an a single amp can be VERY demanding. Some amps could overheat with multiple units. So I recommend using models like the ADX / Aura Pro / Clark TST as these do not require pushing a large internal piston demanding a constant wattage to do so.

*NOTE you must ENSURE you buy a model that has 4ohm switching. Compatibility to operate 4ohm speaker load is needed for the vast majority of tactile devices. Do NOT run tactile with amps using 8ohm and even models available nowadays that support 6ohm may overheat and trigger their shutdown circuitry when powering multiple 4ohm tactile.

Very few current home cinema AV amplifiers from established brand names offer 4ohm support. Marantz and Denon however do have some models that do but will not likely have "Multichannel Inputs" and only use HDMI or Optical.

Multichannel Inputs
When using these you get direct amplification from the Dolby or DTS source.
You can not add bass/treble or alter with any EQ on the amp as these inputs bypass all that circuitry.
This also means you cannot apply different DSP sound fields but then you shouldn't really have to.
You can, however have control over the volume of each channel output and the master volume.

What I Did
I used Multichannel inputs but with an exception and for a reason.
Console Ouptut - Optical SPDIF Adapter - Multichannel Out - Graphic Equaliser - AV Amp Multichannel Inputs - Speaker Out/Tactile

I had gathered 4x Behringer 31 Band Equaliser at the time to give me more control for the tactile PRIOR to the amplification stage. Using one Stereo EQ to control 2 channels at a time.

The best way to operate audio-tactile is with an equaliser
Models I used as these have excellent gain control to boost games with lower/stronger tactile sensations. They also have crossover control and 8 frequency sliders within the 100Hz range to give more individual control of boosting or cutting specific frequencies.

Most EQ will only give you about 3 frequency sliders under 100Hz but that is just too limiting, more are needed if you want the best control. Having one with additional sliders/control also makes listening to music with tactile more enjoyable too as again you have much greater control of the source even into higher frequencies.

SEE THIS

I still have at least two of these available that I have not bothered to ebay yet but they deserve a good and loving home (lol). if anyone is interested within the UK in buying for a great price then, by all means please PM me. You won't get a better analog EQ for tactile control.

They are also compatible with Simvibe and look nuts too.

behringer-ultragraph-fbq-pro-fbq3102-963331.png






Different LED modes in operation



An alternative is going with multiple stereo amps and the inuke DSP1000 is the best bang for buck with built in EQ/Crossover and many other useful tools. Yet you need multiple amps of course to run 4-6 channels and these are quite loud. I have a thread appearing soon covering these models at RaceDepartment forums and how to do low noise fan/heatsink modification to them if desired.


Hope its some help....
 
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So I'm going all out for this release of GT I have a t300rs and I want to purchase a race seat/simrig to add bass shakers for a kind of 4 point sim to simulate the 4 points of the car (feeling kurbs, bumps and nudges). Gt6 was pretty good with its 5.1 mixing--it worked on my ancient/cheapo JVC receiver pretty well. What I was wondering was how I would go about setting this up?? I would obviously need to mirror my 5.1 signal so I could have both sound and the bass shakers dealt with separately. My idea was, mind you my knowledge on these sorts of things is limited, was to get the 5.1 signal and use a surround sound decoder to split the channels up individually, use a low pass filter on each channel and then use an amplifier on each signal to make it usable for the transducers/shakers mounted on the 4 corners of the race seat.

If there's anybody with more knowledge on this sort of setup or the equipment required to pull it off I would greatly appreciate it and would totally wanna shake your hand and maybe buy you a beer or something lol I barely know what I'm talking about when it comes to audio and my little bit of research is all I'm going off of. I'm hoping I'm not the only one curious about doing this with psvr compatibility being in GT sport.
So I'm going all out for this release of GT I have a t300rs and I want to purchase a race seat/simrig to add bass shakers for a kind of 4 point sim to simulate the 4 points of the car (feeling kurbs, bumps and nudges). Gt6 was pretty good with its 5.1 mixing--it worked on my ancient/cheapo JVC receiver pretty well. What I was wondering was how I would go about setting this up?? I would obviously need to mirror my 5.1 signal so I could have both sound and the bass shakers dealt with separately. My idea was, mind you my knowledge on these sorts of things is limited, was to get the 5.1 signal and use a surround sound decoder to split the channels up individually, use a low pass filter on each channel and then use an amplifier on each signal to make it usable for the transducers/shakers mounted on the 4 corners of the race seat.

If there's anybody with more knowledge on this sort of setup or the equipment required to pull it off I would greatly appreciate it and would totally wanna shake your hand and maybe buy you a beer or something lol I barely know what I'm talking about when it comes to audio and my little bit of research is all I'm going off of. I'm hoping I'm not the only one curious about doing this with psvr compatibility being in GT sport.

Good technical advice from Mr Latte, however I would recommend caution at this stage - we don't yet know what the audio is like for Gran Turismo Sport or how suited it is to tactile transducers.

If you want to go down the multi-channel tactile route it would definitely be best to wait until after the game has been released and thoroughly test the game and each channel of audio to see whether it is worth doing. A warning - it is expensive and very time consuming.

You will need to experiment a lot with brackets / mountings for your tactile transducers and think a great deal and then experiment with isolation of each channel's effects.

The effectiveness of the system will depend a great deal on the type of seat, its mounting and the construction / design of the rig. For example I used to use a seat with a wooden frame, but even with 4 shaker units there was less effect than 1 shaker on a chair with a metal frame.

Personally, having experimented a lot with tactile on PS3 (but not as much as Mr Latte lol) I don't think it is worth going multi-channel. You can get a very good effect which adds nicely to the immersion and does not distract from the racing, with a relatively low cost mono solution and also avoids the problems of trying to achieve good isolation of one channels effects from another's.

I recently started experimenting with tactile on the PS4 using Project Cars - I strongly recommend reading the review by @Scaff in which he compares the tactile effects of the current leading racing games. It will be interesting to see how he thinks GTS stacks up against the other games after it is released.

Sometimes newer game does not mean better - for example I compared a particular Corvette on GT5 which provided an excellent effect, but on GT6 that same car was feeble - examination of the waveform confirmed that in their attempts to improve the audio sound PD had spoilt the tactile effect by trimming the low frequencies.

My advice - be cautious, just get a mono system for now and do a lot of testing on GTS after its release and don't click the spend button unless you are absolutely certain. A mono system for your seat with a bit of tingle in the pedal area will probably be worthwhile and add to the immersion.

Note - on console the multi-channel audio based tactile effects will not be similar to simvibe which uses a non-audio system so trying to replicate "Chassis mode" will not be effective.

Excellent PS4 game tactile review below:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/tactile-review-reckhorn-2-1-bs-200-kit.353088/
 
GT Sport will be fine for tactile, you will likely discover some cars are better than others but this is common with all games. Besides no shortage of racing games coming especially if your a multi-system owner.

Mono is okay, I started with a single unit myself but having a unit in seat/pedals improves the sensation. Adding stereo L/R units further increases the sensation and often can give nice effects from curbs or passing other cars.

Using Center & LFE channels are less essential.
Connecting a subwoofer and using with tactile together gives more life/energy to engines.

You dont have to spend a fortune or buy everything all at once. If anything its nice to gradually improve things.
 
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@Mr Latte You are a genius!! I was clueless and had no idea where to start and you are a prime example of why GTP is the best hahah :D I really appreciate the pointers, knowledge and advice. You even went as far to point me towards the correct hardware, down to specific models and such.. What kind of coffee do you like? :cheers:

I'm thinking of option 2 as it sounds more easily scalable (starting with 2ch.) also sounds similar to how it's setup on PC as it's usually setup with every channel divided to RCA connectors which means when the GF allows me to build a PC I'll mostly be set--I think. I had no idea about the difference between buttkicker and other tactile transducers so I'm going to go the route of the aura sound products(easily bought in my area).

@Sick Cylinder Thank you for the advice :) I'm going the route of 80/20 extrude aluminum just buying enough for a wheel and pedal stand(expensive) for now, seat and shifter come later with the shakers. Metal seems better at transducing (harhar) the vibrations and with the 80/20 I could control mounting positions better.
 
Hey, I like most coffee's :)
Not so much a big user of the Chemex or Aero Press these days but still grind fresh beans every so often and
luv the aroma.

Good Luck on your adventures, don't forget rubber isolators they can make a huge difference.
Always nice to see others get started into this or take it further.
 
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