Human Rights

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Is it conceivable that the threshold for what's considered a significant cognitive impairment that gets you executed could change if such people had no right to life? Why should the state pay for their care and needs until their natural demise?
Because people want to?

I genuinely don't understand the question. How can you execute someone with a right to life? I mean besides violating their rights.
At what stage should the contract be entered into?
I don't know. Currently the US kinda wings it and just assumes responsibility. I'd say at or just before birth would be a good time (the contract can be written for a future state of affairs).
What if the father promised to be in the child's life before birth but reneged on this after?
You mean like absolutely gazillions of absent fathers? You should be able to do this, but the contract may come with some stipulations. So, for example, if the father signed a contract saying that he'd be the guardian, he might be on the hook (as a termination clause of that contract) for child support until another guardian could be found or until he was otherwise absolved of the responsibility (based on other conditions of the contract).
 
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Because people want to?

I genuinely don't understand the question. How can you execute someone with a right to life? I mean besides violating their rights.
I don't think most people want to look after the severely cognitively impaired, but rather feel an obligation.

I'm wondering what would happen if the right to life was taken from such people. We talked about how it likely won't for infants because of practicality, but there may not be such protection for other humans. Currently the state spends billions on their care, even when relatives have long stopped visiting. What if we see something similar to the pressure felt by numerous families following a prenatal diagnosis of a disability?
 
I don't think most people want to look after the severely cognitively impaired, but rather feel an obligation.

I'm wondering what would happen if the right to life was taken from such people. We talked about how it likely won't for infants because of practicality, but there may not be such protection for other humans. Currently the state spends billions on their care, even when relatives have long stopped visiting. What if we see something similar to the pressure felt by numerous families following a prenatal diagnosis of a disability?
The reason the state spends billions on care now is because people want to - not because they have a right to it - at least in the US. In the UK, I know there is some notion of a right to healthcare, and so you may see that spending as part of a right to life somehow - because without their right to healthcare you think they'd be tossed out on the street. That's not generally the case. The reason you have an idea of a right to healthcare (which isn't really a thing), is because people want to (and feeling an obligation is part of "want" in my book).

Taking someone's right to life is not the same as killing them. You can kill someone with a right to life (murder), or kill someone without a right to life (self defense, pulling the plug). You can also refuse to care for someone, which is not killing anyone and has only to do with your rights rather than theirs.

You can't just "take" the right to life. You either have it or you do not. You don't get bestowed it by others or have it revoked. Your rights are based on your actions and abilities. Nothing else.
 
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The reason the state spends billions on care now is because people want to - not because they have a right to it - at least in the US. In the UK, I know there is some notion of a right to healthcare, and so you may see that spending as part of a right to life somehow - because without their right to healthcare you think they'd be tossed out on the street. That's not generally the case. The reason you have an idea of a right to healthcare (which isn't really a thing), is because people want to (and feeling an obligation is part of "want" in my book).

Taking someone's right to life is not the same as killing them. You can kill someone with a right to life (murder), or kill someone without a right to life (self defense, pulling the plug). You can also refuse to care for someone, which is not killing anyone and has only to do with your rights rather than theirs.

You can't just "take" the right to life. You either have it or you do not. You don't get bestowed it by others or have it revoked. Your rights are based on your actions and abilities. Nothing else.
By taken I'm talking about having it revoked.

While I'm agreeing with you that we spend the billions because of a sense of compassion, couldn't the right to life be seen as the final safeguard against a more....aggressive approach to the handling of the latter stages of life. Would this desire to support life survive if we were to evolve into a society that became more focussed on a connection between a right to life and cognition.

This isn't an argument against euthanasia; there's actually a really good piece worth a read that advocated for the so called "dementia tax":


We just need to be careful in how far we go.
 
By taken I'm talking about having it revoked.

While I'm agreeing with you that we spend the billions because of a sense of compassion, couldn't the right to life be seen as the final safeguard against a more....aggressive approach to the handling of the latter stages of life. Would this desire to support life survive if we were to evolve into a society that became more focussed on a connection between a right to life and cognition.

This isn't an argument against euthanasia; there's actually a really good piece worth a read that advocated for the so called "dementia tax":


We just need to be careful in how far we go.
I think you're still misunderstanding my position somehow.

Anyone can lose their right to life by demonstrating that they cannot observe the right to life of those around them. This can be done by murdering someone, by being comatose, becoming locked in due to ALS, or via dementia. You're concerned that this means that those people may be murdered by the state or perhaps individuals. But, for most of those examples, not if they have a guardian. The same would be true of inducing a pregnancy loss involuntarily in a woman. You can structure guardianship in a way to guarantee that the elderly all have a guardian, right into state-sponsored senior institutions exactly like what your article describes. What I'm saying wouldn't need to change your article at all, despite the fact that it itself advocates for change. The change it advocates for is also fine with everything I'm saying.

We don't take care of the elderly because of a sense of rights, at all. And there's nothing about anything I'm suggesting here that would change any of that.

As people get older, they NEED to have some rights removed. Just like children. At some point you lose the ability to drive. You maybe should lose the right to vote. You should lose the right to own a firearm at some point, and ultimately, if you're far enough gone, the right to life. That doesn't mean you get executed. It means you have a guardian, just like an infant.
 
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changes in the future.
Why are you asking this? Do you expect people to suddenly feel differently about the elderly for some reason? The answer is that if that changes in the future, those people don't get cared for.

I think, at least from what I can tell of this conversation, that you think that because those people are human they have some kind of fundamental right for others humans to care for them. And despite a lack of demonstration on that - even if we take that for granted - if people don't want to care for the elderly, they're not going to.
 
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The answer is that if that changes in the future, those people don't get cared for.
Would that not be non-voluntary euthanasia?
Why are you asking this? Do you expect people to suddenly feel differently about the elderly for some reason?
Why do we feel this way about them now, logically speaking? Using the embryo discussed earlier as an analogy, why are we caring about objects little different to a eating and pooping stone. And I'm specifically talking about advanced dementia patients, not the elderly as a whole.
 
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Would that not be non-voluntary euthanasia?
well not what I was describing.

If I'm being as kind as I can to this question, I think you're asking me if someone can lose their mind far enough that they lose their right to life and are ultimately euthanized without their consent. Yes, that's called "pulling the plug", also called "capital punishment".
Why do we feel this way about them now, logically speaking? Using the embryo discussed earlier as an analogy, why are we caring about objects little different to a eating and pooping stone. And I'm specifically talking about advanced dementia patients, not the elderly as a whole.
I'd imagine the answer is different about every individual. People care for lots of things. I held a funeral for my kid's fish not long ago.
 
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well not what I was describing.

If I'm being as kind as I can to this question, I think you're asking me if someone can lose their mind far enough that they lose their right to life and are ultimately euthanized without their consent. Yes, that's called "pulling the plug", also called "capital punishment".
I took it as you talking about no-one, including the state, taking care of the individual.

Consider a Kantian or utilitarian argument:

Sharp
So what is the being that remains, and what are our
moral obligations toward it? If such a being is less than an
animal, it would presumably share the status of plants.
It is alive, but has absolutely no moral status whatsoever.
We could then treat the patient in the way we would any
object. If it is a burden, it could be discarded. Nothing
demands that we maintain such a being, since it carries
no moral status. Imagine, for example, a case in which a
woman has duties toward her children and husband but
also has a demented father who is no longer capable of
taking care of himself. By the sort of Kantian reasoning
on which Cooley’s argument depends, the woman’s duty
toward her rational relatives would automatically trump
any and all obligations toward her father. In fact, there
would be no true obligations toward her father, since he
is no longer a human being with moral status. From here,
the jump to active euthanasia is not a large one.
By basing moral worth solely on a specific notion of
rationality, Cooley’s approach leaves no room for duties
to non-rational beings. Cooley uses this to reject eutha-
nasia, by pointing out that we cannot have a duty to kill
the patient because we cannot have any duty toward
non-rational beings. However, I believe the argument for
euthanasia could be strengthened by such loss of status.
By comparing demented patients to dangerous madmen,
and presenting the loss of rationality as a loss of person-
hood that makes them less than animals, Cooley leaves
no reasons for keeping such patients alive. Even senti-
mentality would have to be dismissed as irrational given
the circumstances. There is nothing to be sentimental
towards, as the persons we knew are gone.

Rajkumar
reducing an individual’s worth or reason for living to their cognitive capacity is an example of utilitarian thought (Hilliard, 2011), and could lead to the extension of this practice to those with severe mental disability of any sort, as well as to the advocacy of non-voluntary euthanasia on utilitarian or economic principles
I'd imagine the answer is different about every individual. People care for lots of things. I held a funeral for my kid's fish not long ago.
Yes but, I'd imagine, the funeral didn't cost tens of billions of dollars.
 
I took it as you talking about no-one, including the state, taking care of the individual.

Consider a Kantian or utilitarian argument:

The argument takes as a given that there is something fundamentally immoral about not taking care of a person whose mind is gone. I reject this assumption. First, that assumption would need to be supported. Also unspported (at least in the text you've supplied) is the notion that this makes someone "less than an animal". I have no idea where that would come from or why.


Yes but, I'd imagine, the funeral didn't cost tens of billions of dollars.

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here but it's not landing.
 
The argument takes as a given that there is something fundamentally immoral about not taking care of a person whose mind is gone. I reject this assumption. First, that assumption would need to be supported. Also unspported (at least in the text you've supplied) is the notion that this makes someone "less than an animal". I have no idea where that would come from or why.

It's taken from this paper:


(I can give you the full copy if you don't have access)

Danoff
I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here but it's not landing.
Would you still be so caring to give a funeral if the costs were as high as those for care of the elderly.
 
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It's taken from this paper:


(I can give you the full copy if you don't have access)


Would you still be so caring to give a funeral if the costs were as high as those for care of the elderly.
A guardianship requirement alleviates these concerns. Same as for children. If that fails, some form of institutionalization should exist, same as for children. This is the same for criminals and the mentally ill. But in the criminal case, guardianship likely does not make sense.
 
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A guardianship requirement alleviates these concerns. Same as for children. If that fails, some form of institutionalization should exist, same as for children. This is the same for criminals and the mentally ill. But in the criminal case, guardianship likely does not make sense.
And a guardianship agreement would take place from the first breath?
 
Thinking about those who are alive, but haven't taken their first breath (i.e. gestatelings).

Your answer as to how they should be treated was that it should depend on a contract.

That leaves the scenario where fully developed infants may not have a guardian but a less developed, premature infant will by virtue of having taken their first breath.

-------

Came across this paper today, found it interesting:

 
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Thinking about those who are alive, but haven't taken their first breath (i.e. gestatelings).

Your answer as to how they should be treated was that it should depend on a contract.

That leaves the scenario where fully developed infants may not have a guardian but a less developed, premature infant will by virtue of having taken their first breath.
I don't understand why you think this is significant. Guardianship is not determined by development in this case*.


* Other than the obvious, which is that the organism is underdeveloped to have rights that preclude guardianship.
 
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I don't understand why you think this is significant. Guardianship is not determined by development in this case*.


* Other than the obvious, which is that the organism is underdeveloped to have rights that preclude guardianship.
It's significant in how we treat those humans.

If they have no guardian, and no rights, what can we do with them?
 
It's significant in how we treat those humans.

If they have no guardian, and no rights, what can we do with them?
We're back to this. We had a whole discussion about this - and discussed the differences between fetuses and lab mice.

The fetus belongs to someone. It likely is part of someone's body. You might as well have asked me what "we" can do with my arm. The answer is, nothing, it's my arm.
 
We're back to this. We had a whole discussion about this - and discussed the differences between fetuses and lab mice.

The fetus belongs to someone. It likely is part of someone's body. You might as well have asked me what "we" can do with my arm. The answer is, nothing, it's my arm.
No, not the foetus.

It's separate from a body, but hasn't taken a breath so technically it doesn't belong to anyone. Or does it?

This new development will bring unique ethical situations, and I'm trying to understand how guardianship works with regards to these humans specifically.

A healthcare professional has a moral and legal obligation to save the life of a born and breathing infant, even if there was no "guardian". Should there be the same for a gestateling, if it too doesn't have a guardian?
 
A healthcare professional has a moral and legal obligation to save the life of a born and breathing infant, even if there was no "guardian". Should there be the same for a gestateling, if it too doesn't have a guardian?
"Moral". Maybe a legal obligation based on some set of moral principles adopted by the profession. I don't know what kind of rules various healthcare professionals should have, and it's not really appropriate for me to claim that I should. Whatever works best in the field. It would be absurd for me to think I know what kind of rules make sense for a profession I've never had. The professional code of conduct also doesn't seem to be related to guardianship. So I'm not sure why you're mentioning that here.

Basically, this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about as best I can tell.

Legal guardianship for a new person should be established before the new person exists, so that the moment that they do exist, there is some entity responsible for making decisions on their behalf. Right now, at least in the US, guardianship is just assumed. I think that process should be formalized. At some point during pregnancy a mother, and potentially a father, should be offered an opportunity to claim guardianship of the new individual in the event that the new individual survives birth and comes into (legal) existence. If they decline, alternative individuals can be given the opportunity. Should there not be a suitable guardian found, an institution may need to make such a claim.

For a fetus in an artificial womb, the process shouldn't be any different. Each fetus would need to have some kind of "birth" event to signify their transition into legal personhood and the corresponding adoption of the guardianship agreement.
 
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Legal guardianship for a new person should be established before the new person exists, so that the moment that they do exist, there is some entity responsible for making decisions on their behalf. Right now, at least in the US, guardianship is just assumed. I think that process should be formalized. At some point during pregnancy a mother, and potentially a father, should be offered an opportunity to claim guardianship of the new individual in the event that the new individual survives birth and comes into (legal) existence. If they decline, alternative individuals can be given the opportunity. Should there not be a suitable guardian found, an institution may need to make such a claim.

For a fetus in an artificial womb, the process shouldn't be any different. Each fetus would need to have some kind of "birth" event to signify their transition into legal personhood and the corresponding adoption of the guardianship agreement.
This is what I was trying to find out.

So guardianship should be decided before birth. Makes sense, but with the artificial womb are you talking about only partial ectogenesis or those developing ex utero exclusively too.
 
This is what I was trying to find out.

So guardianship should be decided before birth. Makes sense, but with the artificial womb are you talking about only partial ectogenesis or those developing ex utero exclusively too.
It doesn't really matter - it's entirely driven by pragmatism and convention rather than moral obligation. I guess it would make sense to treat partial ectogenesis and fully ex utero the same way and identify a "birth" moment according to something (maybe physical separation from the artificial womb apparatus) and transition to the guardianship agreement at that event. Basically it's whatever works well and consistently.
 
It doesn't really matter - it's entirely driven by pragmatism and convention rather than moral obligation. I guess it would make sense to treat partial ectogenesis and fully ex utero the same way and identify a "birth" moment according to something (maybe physical separation from the artificial womb apparatus) and transition to the guardianship agreement at that event. Basically it's whatever works well and consistently.
I mean, I "liked" the post, but disagree on the moral obligation part, since I'd take a moral stand to experimentation on foetuses/gestatelings past a certain threshold.
 
A guardianship requirement alleviates these concerns. Same as for children. If that fails, some form of institutionalization should exist, same as for children. This is the same for criminals and the mentally ill. But in the criminal case, guardianship likely does not make sense.

I'm not sure I had properly thought through that last sentence. In the criminal case, a prison is effectively the guardianship institution. It takes the role of providing a standard of care for criminals during incarceration. The institutionalization of criminals doesn't have to be seen as necessarily punitive, so the conditions don't need to be challenging for the individuals involved in order to "punish" them for their wrongdoings. They've been removed from society based on their demonstration of an inability to observe the rights of others, and so their removal necessitates a kind of guardianship entity. The same can be true for individuals that are mentally compromised in many respects. From children (orphanages) to elderly (nursing homes) to mentally handicapped or insane (mental institution). In fact, the same can even be said for the institutionalization of some people suffering from temporary injury (hospital).

In each of these cases we recognize that some level of guardianship may be appropriate for an individual. And where an individual guardian cannot be found, an institutional guardian is likely preferable to just letting this population be feral. In the case of the elderly, because they'd die on the street, in the case of children, because they'd fail to become educated and emotionally cared for and so fail to realize their potential and likely result in violating the rights of others. In the case the criminals, because they may harm others again. In the case of the mentally handicapped or insane, because they'd harm others or themselves.

Morally speaking, it is permissable to just leave these people alone. You're not obligated to remove every criminal from society. You're not obligated to care for children. But guardianship provides a means for establishing care for entities that we desire to protect in this way. The reason you're not obligated is because even if these people retain some level of rights, none of those rights extend to obligation on others. But the existence of a partial set of rights still confers some sense of value, even if not a moral obligation.

Dogs, pigs, apes, monkeys, elephants - each of these may also fit into some kind of guardianship (whether that be personal or institutional). Because each of these creatures at least presents some question as to their capability to participate in a moral framework. It may require instruction to do so, but so do we.
 
Precedence, I would say.
I'm going to need some kind of explanation of that to make sense of it. You basically said it's important because it's important.
A human dying is categorised according to such stages too (at least in the UK).
I.e. Miscarriage -> Late miscarriage -> Still birth.
So viability is important to you because someone decided to use it to bin some data?
 
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