MH17 Crash In Ukraine. Known info in OP.
- Thread starter Dennisch
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- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
- 4,551
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
It is clear that the missile was Russian-made, that's enough. Although "Russian-made Buk" is just as obvious and constant term as "Japanese-made katana" or "Australian origin kangaroo", it's enough to say "the missile was Russian-made", and the public opinion will do the rest. Even if turns out that the MH17 was downed by a fighter jet, it won't be a problem, because that jet is Russian-made, too.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Yes, it will be a problem, because Russia doesn't have any invisible fighter jets.
- 4,551
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
2 weeks old news, but interesting:
Netherlands refuse to disclose some of the documents about the MH17 crash.
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/besluiten-over-mh17-blijven-geheim (Dutch)
A number of documents (about the government desicions) remain secret because "they may harm the relationship with other countries". What countries are they talking about? Russia? But Russia is already a labeled agressor and the number one suspect since the day of the crash. How can it get worse?
So it's not Russia then?..
Netherlands refuse to disclose some of the documents about the MH17 crash.
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/besluiten-over-mh17-blijven-geheim (Dutch)
A number of documents (about the government desicions) remain secret because "they may harm the relationship with other countries". What countries are they talking about? Russia? But Russia is already a labeled agressor and the number one suspect since the day of the crash. How can it get worse?
So it's not Russia then?..
- 11,722
- Australia
- I_Grayson_Fox_I
Because saying it is russia is like saying bush was friends with bin larden
But having it in an offical report is like having a picture of bush and bin larden together smiling
- 31,176
- Hilversum
- Dennisch
They say the documents hold no added value to the investigation itself. It's about what happened after the crash, opinions from politicians and such. Which makes me wonder why that should be in the report anyway.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
I imagine that it would look at the way politicians and the media handled the immediate response to the tragedy, and how that response affected the subsequent investigation and relations with Russia.
After all, Tony Abbott accused Russia of being complicit within eight hours of the first report that MH17 went down. He was nearly a full day ahead of the likes of Obama and Cameron in accusing them of playing a part, and by the end of the day, he was accusing Russia of being involved with one breath and then demanding a full, impartial and transparent investigation with the next. There was a reason why Russia singled out the Australian response when they addressed the tragedy. Especially since Abbott uses the tragedy for political gain - he's ridiculously unpopular here, but has always taken a boost in the polls when it comes to national security. His "strong stance" on Russia was clearly designed to look favorably on him in domestic politics, but arguably did a hell of a lot of damage. One could even go so far as to say that any chance of getting Russia to cooperate was killed off by Abbott.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
- 4,551
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
The fighter jet assumption is already disproven by both Russian and Dutch investigators.
The question, where did the missile come from (whose controlled area was it launched from, Ukrainian army or the rebels)?
BTW, Almaz-Antey company, the maker of the Buk system, carried out an experiment simulating the missile attack using a decommissioned Il-86 plane and a computer calculating the results of the explosion. They advise the investigation to take their simulation results into attention, otherwise "it won't be fair and neutral".
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
The investigation found that it came from eastern Ukraine - an area controlled by the separatists at the time. Unless you seem to think that the Ukrainian military was carting a surface-to-air missile around the region, which would be unusual considering that the separatists had no air capabilities at the time.
- 4,030
- Tallinn
Almaz-Antey conducted an experiment that confirms that the airplane was shot down by a 9M38 BUK missile that is not used by Russia, and the missile launch was made from Ukrainian controlled grounds (Zaroshinskoye)
For the experiment they used a decommissioned IL-86. "The Netherlands are wrong about the model of the missile and the launch position." -says Novikov and the head of the Almaz-Antey Mikhail Maloshevskiy confirmed that the modeling made by Netherlands specialists was not enough.
They also say that it was 9M38 model because in the new model, besides the standard shrapnel shape there's a butterfly shaped shrapnel that Netherlands didn't find.
I don't know how to translate websites, but here's the news: link
I also don't fully understand the report and confused, did they "shoot" the missile from the Ukr positions or from the "rebels"? And if they say that the missile was launched from Zoroshenskoye... then it was still launched from rebel controlled positions! <_<
For the experiment they used a decommissioned IL-86. "The Netherlands are wrong about the model of the missile and the launch position." -says Novikov and the head of the Almaz-Antey Mikhail Maloshevskiy confirmed that the modeling made by Netherlands specialists was not enough.
They also say that it was 9M38 model because in the new model, besides the standard shrapnel shape there's a butterfly shaped shrapnel that Netherlands didn't find.
I don't know how to translate websites, but here's the news: link
I also don't fully understand the report and confused, did they "shoot" the missile from the Ukr positions or from the "rebels"? And if they say that the missile was launched from Zoroshenskoye... then it was still launched from rebel controlled positions! <_<
Dotini
(Banned)
- 15,742
- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
According to what I heard on BBC world news service radio, the investigation also concluded that the passengers all lost consciousness immediately, and that the flight was crossing a conflict zone where other airplanes had been lost and other carriers were avoiding. BBC also noted that responsibility for the downing would be addressed in a separate report to be issued in some months time. It remains unclear which faction in the conflict launched the missile, as well as the rules of engagement and chain of command.
In a similar incident in 1988 when the US Navy downed an Iranian airliner in Iranian airspace, there was no finding of legal liability and no apology was made. But the US paid $213,000 per passenger in compensation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was shot down by theUnited States Navyguided missile cruiserUSS Vincennes under the command of William C. Rogers III. The incident took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MRsurface-to-air missiles fired from Vincennes. All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died.
In a similar incident in 1988 when the US Navy downed an Iranian airliner in Iranian airspace, there was no finding of legal liability and no apology was made. But the US paid $213,000 per passenger in compensation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
On 3 July 1988, the aircraft operating on this route was shot down by theUnited States Navyguided missile cruiserUSS Vincennes under the command of William C. Rogers III. The incident took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MRsurface-to-air missiles fired from Vincennes. All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died.
- 8,388
- The Black Lodge
It appears both Russian and Dutch research point to the same weapon used (though maybe slight variation of warhead model, 9n314 vs 9n314m), just the 'who did it?' is different. But at least this will silence all the tinfoil hat theories about Su-25s and meteorite strikes. 👍
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
In fairness... that's a Russian state-owned company. They definitely have a dog in the fight.
No, it didn't, it only said that about the cockpit crew. BBC.
Other aircraft had been below 32,000 feet, there were no losses from the high-altitude airways and there were no avoidance NOTAMS in place until after the incident (see waaaay earlier in the thread). Only one US carrier was avoiding the airspace completely, as I recall. Certainly there was no mass avoidance by regular carriers in that airway.
Similar in that a civilian airliner was shot down, there have been no findings about the circumstances in which MH17 happened so it seems difficult to draw any other parallels.
- 4,551
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
But they were expecting a Russian invasion. Plus their news were whining about a Russian invasion every week.
9N314M is not a missile, it's a warhead used in the 9M38M1 missile.
Unfortunately, I don't have any friends working in Almaz-Antey, but I could find this:
Source: http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/68332.html
As you see, the 9M38M1 missile has butterfly-shaped shrapnel, and it's not "new" - it is used by Soviet-made Buk-M1 systems that Ukraine does have.
And the locals said earlier, there weren't any Buks at all.
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/68728.html
What can I say about this report in general - well, it's better than it was before. Better than nothing.
AND, as it was noted in the report - regardless of who shot the plane down, Ukraine is still responsible for not closing the airspace over the conflict zone where planes have been downed before.
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- 4,030
- Tallinn
But they were expecting a Russian invasion. Plus their news were whining about a Russian invasion every week.
9N314M is not a missile, it's a warhead used in the 9M38M1 missile. No disputes in the Russian and Dutch reports here.
Unfortunately, I don't have any friends working in Almaz-Antey, but I could find this:
Source: http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/68332.html
As you see, the 9M38M1 missile has butterfly-shaped shrapnel, and it's not "new" - it is used by Soviet-made Buk-M1 systems that Ukraine does have.
And the locals said earlier, there weren't any Buks at all.
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/68728.html
What can I say about this report in general - well, it's better than it was before. Better than nothing.
AND, as it was noted in the report - regardless of who shot the plane down, Ukraine is still responsible for not closing the airspace over the conflict zone where planes have been downed before.
But Almaz-Antey said that the old missiles don't have those butterflies. X_X
- 4,551
- Moscow
- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
They just mean it wasn't the 9M38M1 (as the Dutch say) - it's the missile they call "more modern". The "old" one is the 9M38. Perhaps they just "didn't see" the butterflies hit the Boeing.
I suppose, the key point is:
If the missile was 9M38, then it's Ukrainian, because in Russia, all missiles of this type are decomissioned.
If the missile was 9M38M1, then it doesn't prove anything, because it's used by both Ukraine and RF.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
- 4,030
- Tallinn
Watching the live broadcast on EuroNews. "Russian response to Netherlands investigation."
Air transport agency deputy head- Oleg Storchevoy.
"Russia not agrees with the results.
Illogical.
No facts.
Quality is bad.
Good animation though.
Blames Netherlands for not listening to Almaz-Antey and Russia.
Russia even gave secret information about the missiles but Nedherlands didn't took them.
Blames Ukraine for not closing the airspace.
777 doesn't have butterfly holes from shrapnel so it wasn't a BUK M1.
Shrapnel was added to move the investigation to blame separatists.
Russia knew about the missile fragments found on the crash site from last meeting with Nedherlands in August.
Again blames Ukraine for not closing the airspace.
Russian never blamed somebody and tried to show and analyze all possible versions.
Russia was only allowed to make photos of the airplane parts.
In August we were working with airplane parts, but weren't allowed to take photos. (chuckles)
Russia will still investigate and will try to restart the official investigation using UN *something*.
Talks about ICAO standards and says that they still have radio-locator (radar) data and dispatch voice recordings.
Says that the Nedherlands didn't take this information."
...aand I have to go. I believe that nothing new will be added.
:/
Air transport agency deputy head- Oleg Storchevoy.
"Russia not agrees with the results.
Illogical.
No facts.
Quality is bad.
Good animation though.
Blames Netherlands for not listening to Almaz-Antey and Russia.
Russia even gave secret information about the missiles but Nedherlands didn't took them.
Blames Ukraine for not closing the airspace.
777 doesn't have butterfly holes from shrapnel so it wasn't a BUK M1.
Shrapnel was added to move the investigation to blame separatists.
Russia knew about the missile fragments found on the crash site from last meeting with Nedherlands in August.
Again blames Ukraine for not closing the airspace.
Russian never blamed somebody and tried to show and analyze all possible versions.
Russia was only allowed to make photos of the airplane parts.
In August we were working with airplane parts, but weren't allowed to take photos. (chuckles)
Russia will still investigate and will try to restart the official investigation using UN *something*.
Talks about ICAO standards and says that they still have radio-locator (radar) data and dispatch voice recordings.
Says that the Nedherlands didn't take this information."
...aand I have to go. I believe that nothing new will be added.
:/
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