Trans Am Tires

[hawkeyez]

What’s everyone’s thoughts on the proper tire choice in game to replicate 70’s trans am cars?

Other social media sites seem to say no higher than comfort soft. Im not convinced this is correct as I’m having a really hard time utilizing all that power in the Camaro with comfort softs.

Maybe we can’t put wide enough tires on the Camaro? I believe I have the rest of the tune correct, just not the tires. I’ve got it close to Project Cars 2 Camaro but it’s harder to make it hook up in GT7.

Laguna Seca record is 1:31 from what I found. Best I can manage and is 1:38. Mostly 1:39 or 1:40 in race. It feels like I’m off the throttle more than I’m on the throttle.

Is there a magic suspension setting I could do so I can utilize the cars power? If I could get on the throttle sooner I think I could manage a 1:35 or 1:36

 

[Batschisane52]

I don't cast I vote, because I could only guess, but I just sent an e-mail to that site and asked what they used back in the day and what they are using today:http://www.historictransam.com/

In my custom race TranAm grid i used RHs in order to have them all on the same tyres(I have Mustang Bosses in that grid, and with their stock SH tyres they had too much advatage over all the other muscle cars that come with comfort tyres)

 

[Fuzzi0n]

Usually with pre 70s stuff I go with CS or higher, once you're into the 70s sometimes I find that SH or even SM suit the cars better because they offer a bit more grip but it still moves around enough. Quite a lot of the wide body cars in GT7 will get wider tyres if you replace the wheels, not sure how much that actually helps though. Honestly I wouldn't try to compare lap times because pretty much all tracks are completely different now and the tyres in GT7 aren't going to replicate the compounds and the old bias-ply constructions that well either.

If you're trying to run races against the AI you'll have to run RH or they'll default to whatever the stock tyres were anyway.

 

[hawkeyez]

Thanks I’m pretty much just trying to get the car handling in a similar fashion. I might just uo the tires to sports hard once I sort the tune out a little more on comfort soft. Just to see if I can tame it a bit yet.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I can elaborate more on the other concerns later when I'm not on a cell phone, but Laguna has changed layouts significantly since the 66-72 Trans Am series. Iirc they run in the mid 1'40s with the current layout.

Edit, forgot to mention: The tyre rules specify treaded tyres, most run the Hoosier TD or similar.

 

[hawkeyez]

I can elaborate more on the other concerns later when I'm not on a cell phone, but Laguna has changed layouts significantly since the 66-72 Trans Am series. Iirc they run in the mid 1'40s with the current layout.

Edit, forgot to mention: The tyre rules specify treaded tyres, most run the Hoosier TD or similar.

Good points. If that’s the case maybe I’ll just keep working on the tune to make it hook up better as about the best I can muster is a 1:38. I figured I’d naturally be slower than a real driver, but maybe not that much slower considering I’m playing a game not actually in a car with the risks involved of trying to run the fastest lap you can. Haha

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Just catching up here. Relevant to my interests as I enjoy driving the golden era Trans Am cars. I wish we had a small block Mustang and Challenger.

Anyway, as I mentioned above, the layout of Laguna Seca has changed considerably since 1970. This is what Laguna looked like back then;

As well, I took a look at the current historic trans am results and verified the cars are indeed running mid 1'40s. While that may seem silly given a GR86 with bolt ons can run similar times, historic trans am racing is more about the show these days. The cars are capable of going faster than they were in the late 60s and early 70s, though. Even so, in qualifying they were running 1'43s last year. In the races, they're running 1'46s at best. You can see how the races go in this in car from a couple of years ago.

The original tyres they ran were treaded like the Goodyear G7, and they keep that rule today. Though technology has changed a lot and modern compounds like the Hoosier TD and Avon's vintage stuff are much faster than tyres were in 1970. Pure compound wise, the Hoosier TD lies somewhere between a CS and SH, and what they ran on back in the 60s and early 70s would be closer to a CM at best. Though the game doesn't always seem to model the gains from large wheel widths terribly well, nor how forgiving bias ply tyres are with the slip angles they run at compared to modern radials.

The cars were pretty crude. If you haven't, Mark Donohue's The Unfair Advantage is a good read and details a lot of the development of both the Camaro and Javelin. He talks about various things they did to eventually get the Camaro down to under 2600lbs, and handle, while Traco was building 450hp motors. Even with panhard rods and asymmetrical leaf springs to control the rear they hopped around and couldn't go to full throttle in most turns until straightening the wheel at the exit. This promotional video from 1970 shows how rowdy the cars were. This one from the 1969 Donnybrooke(Brainerd) race shows a bit how the cars behave as well. If you're bored, there are a number of documentaries that covered the era at the time.

Anyway, the OP touched on a couple of the issues that leave you chasing your tail with these cars in GT7. Certain tyres do gain more than others with wide wheels, and certain cars benefit differently. There is only so much you can do with a 450hp 2600lb car. It's also worth noting the real cars had zero camber and toe in the rear, four speed transmissions with stock gear ratios and factory rear gear options to swap between, and the engine technology that allowed them to make 450hp while limited to under 5.0 litres also meant they didn't idle and had no torque until 4k. As well, it's not going to model the suspension geometry changes they instituted on these cars to get them to work. In the game we're adding power and grip and adjustability, but not changing the geometry with panhard rods and watts links and custom length arms, etc. All of these are going to impact how close you can get to building a trans am car in the game. The closest you can probably get with the Camaro in game to the original is to build a ~2600lb car and aee if it can make 450hp and spin to 8k without boring or stroking, run a custom transmission with stock m22 ratios, and run zero camber and toe in the rear. Put something like that together and see what tyres it takes to run 1'43-1'46s is probably about as close as you can get. It's not going to be perfect, but maybe get close.

The cars running historic trans am now may not be quite as light as the lightest cars Penske had in 67-68, between not having the custom body panels and having modern safety equipment, etc; but they do enjoy the benefit of modern drivetrain technology and tyres. SVRA rules have the Camaro at 3000lbs, and with modern technology they make over 500hp now. They make a lot more power, tyres are much better, and they go faster than the cars did over 50 years ago. But they still aren't running under 1'40 at Laguna. 1'30 is the modern TA2 lap record.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Related reading;

Penske’s ’69 Trans Am Camaro

Ever want to know how Penske and Donohue prepared the Trans Am Camaros?

www.deansgarage.com

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15141796/the-lightweight-camaro-1967-donohue-trans-am-camaro-archived-test-review/

 

[hawkeyez]

Just catching up here. Relevant to my interests as I enjoy driving the golden era Trans Am cars. I wish we had a small block Mustang and Challenger.

Anyway, as I mentioned above, the layout of Laguna Seca has changed considerably since 1970. This is what Laguna looked like back then;

As well, I took a look at the current historic trans am results and verified the cars are indeed running mid 1'40s. While that may seem silly given a GR86 with bolt ons can run similar times, historic trans am racing is more about the show these days. The cars are capable of going faster than they were in the late 60s and early 70s, though. Even so, in qualifying they were running 1'43s last year. In the races, they're running 1'46s at best. You can see how the races go in this in car from a couple of years ago.

The original tyres they ran were treaded like the Goodyear G7, and they keep that rule today. Though technology has changed a lot and modern compounds like the Hoosier TD and Avon's vintage stuff are much faster than tyres were in 1970. Pure compound wise, the Hoosier TD lies somewhere between a CS and SH, and what they ran on back in the 60s and early 70s would be closer to a CM at best. Though the game doesn't always seem to model the gains from large wheel widths terribly well, nor how forgiving bias ply tyres are with the slip angles they run at compared to modern radials.

The cars were pretty crude. If you haven't, Mark Donohue's The Unfair Advantage is a good read and details a lot of the development of both the Camaro and Javelin. He talks about various things they did to eventually get the Camaro down to under 2600lbs, and handle, while Traco was building 450hp motors. Even with panhard rods and asymmetrical leaf springs to control the rear they hopped around and couldn't go to full throttle in most turns until straightening the wheel at the exit. This promotional video from 1970 shows how rowdy the cars were. This one from the 1969 Donnybrooke(Brainerd) race shows a bit how the cars behave as well. If you're bored, there are a number of documentaries that covered the era at the time.

Anyway, the OP touched on a couple of the issues that leave you chasing your tail with these cars in GT7. Certain tyres do gain more than others with wide wheels, and certain cars benefit differently. There is only so much you can do with a 450hp 2600lb car. It's also worth noting the real cars had zero camber and toe in the rear, four speed transmissions with stock gear ratios and factory rear gear options to swap between, and the engine technology that allowed them to make 450hp while limited to under 5.0 litres also meant they didn't idle and had no torque until 4k. As well, it's not going to model the suspension geometry changes they instituted on these cars to get them to work. In the game we're adding power and grip and adjustability, but not changing the geometry with panhard rods and watts links and custom length arms, etc. All of these are going to impact how close you can get to building a trans am car in the game. The closest you can probably get with the Camaro in game to the original is to build a ~2600lb car and aee if it can make 450hp and spin to 8k without boring or stroking, run a custom transmission with stock m22 ratios, and run zero camber and toe in the rear. Put something like that together and see what tyres it takes to run 1'43-1'46s is probably about as close as you can get. It's not going to be perfect, but maybe get close.

The cars running historic trans am now may not be quite as light as the lightest cars Penske had in 67-68, between not having the custom body panels and having modern safety equipment, etc; but they do enjoy the benefit of modern drivetrain technology and tyres. SVRA rules have the Camaro at 3000lbs, and with modern technology they make over 500hp now. They make a lot more power, tyres are much better, and they go faster than the cars did over 50 years ago. But they still aren't running under 1'40 at Laguna. 1'30 is the modern TA2 lap record.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Related reading;

Penske’s ’69 Trans Am Camaro

Ever want to know how Penske and Donohue prepared the Trans Am Camaros?

www.deansgarage.com

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15141796/the-lightweight-camaro-1967-donohue-trans-am-camaro-archived-test-review/

I’ll have to look, I’ve got it at 440hp as I found a detailed article with all the specs on the Camaro. Weight isn’t 2600lbs I think it’s at 2800lbs. I know they acid dipped the Camaro body or something to thin the metal to make it lighter. I don’t think I want to muck around making it even lighter haha.

I’ll try the no camber and toe in on the rear, might make it impossible to drive. But I can easily go back. Starting to think I’ve got it close enough. I was pretty much 1:40-1:42 in little traffic. If I was on my own and lucked out with a good run I managed a high 1:38.

I may even try comfort mediums just for fun. But I think to sort the handling out I’m just going to have to go with sports hard tires. Funny you mention it’s probably somewhere inbetween because I was feeling like that, I’ve had sports hard on it before and it was gripping just a little too good and comfort soft not quite enough.

I’ll just keep tinkering with it until I sort the handling out and then tune a Boss and a Challenger to run similar lap times as the Camaro. I did that with less accurate tuning information and just had to have the boss and challenger at lower performance points.

I might end up scrapping it altogether and tweak my original tunes some more. Haha

Thanks for the info!!!

 

[Marcus Garvey]

That article is from January 1970, so the published weight is the stock curb weight because they weren't talking publicly about the stuff they did to those cars. Penske was still competing in trans am at the time of the article. It wasn't until 1975 that most of the tricks were revealed. That article is linked in my above post.

Though, as I mentioned, the current SVRA rules put these cars at 3000lbs and the motors make over 500hp now.

 

[hawkeyez]

That article is from January 1970, so the published weight is the stock curb weight because they weren't talking publicly about the stuff they did to those cars. Penske was still competing in trans am at the time of the article. It wasn't until 1975 that most of the tricks were revealed. That article is linked in my above post.

Though, as I mentioned, the current SVRA rules put these cars at 3000lbs and the motors make over 500hp now.

I checked, I think I did 441hp at about 2900lbs. I’m gonna remove camber and toe from the rear. I’m hoping maybe that is the missing piece. If not, I may just reduce power until I’m running 1:45’s and see what performance points that bring me in at.

Those specs I found say BHP so I assumed GT7 uses BHP. The biggest issue I’m running into is it’s difficult to get on the gas but not just that, when it starts to go it’s really tough to save it. I don’t mind loose and minimal traction, but when they get into a countersteering tank slapper that’s frustrating. That could be the camber.

Been tweaking the Muira here and there too, surprisingly I’ve got it handling quite good now… until you push it, then it does the same thing as the Camaro is doing. Suzuka, back tire JUSSSTT touches the grass or curb… good luck saving it, it’s almost and instantaneous spin out. The Camaro isn’t quite as bad.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I'm not sure the zero rear camber and toe is going to help you with how the car handles in the game, but that is how the real car would be. The in car video I linked above shows the Javelin in the lead stepping out on the power on Rahal Straight. The cars are just like that. They're even lifting for T1 and coasting all the way to the Andretti Hairpin. You can find tons more old trans am videos like in my above post, these cars often spent time sideways and in the grass or worse. These cars are/were rowdy and they are sort of tiptoeing around the track.

I think the car will likely handle worse when setup to mimic the real life race car compared to the fastest way to set the car up in game. As well, the factory M22 gearing is going to be lol in the game. That is going to make a big difference in lap times as well. A lot slower. The original car was under 2600lbs and 450hp, but hindered by the brakes, suspension, transmission, 8k rpm motor that made no power below 4k, and 55 year old tyre technology. Despite the raw power numbers, the cars weren't as fast as they might seem because of the terrible powerband and gearing compared to a modern car of the same power to weight.

I would guess you have to pull a lot of power to get the car to run 45s at Laguna on CS. Not sure, though.

It's certainly possible to get the Challenger and Mustang, etc to run the same lap at one track, though getting them all equal at different tracks may be a challenge. I suspect that to get the Boss or Challenger equal to the Camaro at somewhere like Laguna, they may be a lot faster than the Camaro at Daytona, for example. Despite the spread in years, the GT350 is likely a more appropriate match performance wise to the Camaro. I think the Boss and Challenger are going to be quite a bit quicker in a straight line to get the same lap time as the Camaro. Would have to do some testing. In a series it may not matter that much, as each driver having different setups and driving style will likely obscure any variances in the pace of the cars. Though, in a series it isn't practical to enforce zero camber and toe in the rear and Muncie M22 ratios only, so it may be a moot point.

The most practical thing may just be to forget trying to be as authentic in the car setups and just find a setup that is driveable and then get the other cars to run similar lap times, whatever they may be. Realistic or not.

 

[hawkeyez]

Ran it again, no toe, no camber. Only managed a 1:39 but was very consistent with 1:40.100’s. I’m going to give comfort mediums a try and maybe work on the gearing a little bit. I think it’s pretty close, it was 4 wheel drifting through faster corners a lot easier now.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Ran it again, no toe, no camber. Only managed a 1:39 but was very consistent with 1:40.100’s. I’m going to give comfort mediums a try and maybe work on the gearing a little bit. I think it’s pretty close, it was 4 wheel drifting through faster corners a lot easier now.

When you consider they aren't pushing these cars as hard as they did in 1970, you're probably about right pace wise.

 

[hawkeyez]

I’ll be making sure all my older cars with solid rear axles have no camber or toe adjustments. Slower cornering but easier to get on the gas once you straighten out. I think it feels better.

Still going to try comfort medium, this game is weird with its tires. One of the cars, can’t remember which, all I did was put one tire up on it and it was almost impossible to drive. It would grip until it didn’t and then you were toast. Try comfort mediums just out of curiosity.

You’re right about the lap times, I always wonder, would I be faster because there’s no risk of damaging the car or myself? Am I really that good to think I could match or beat a person that actually races in real life? Idk. Maybe, but put them in game and they might destroy my time. Haha

Thanks for the help and the articles, I figured out a few things, from this point on I’ll just tweak the tune until it’s perfect and then share it with friends.

 

[hawkeyez]

Found some modern historic at laguna seca footage. From a year or two ago, I think I’ve got the tune pretty much right on the comfort soft tires. They 100% are not pushing those cars (for good reason haha) so yeah I think 1:38-1:40’s is about perfect. I’m definitely sliding a lot more and not as smooth as the modern historic trans am footage so that makes sense. Right on. Pumped up to sort it all out, I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Tweak the tune, then start trying to match up the boss and challenger, I did a sneaky thing with them already and managed to reduce their torque so they’re already closer to the Camaro now. It’ll still be a long process to equalize but will be well worth it. I’d do more cars but I think I’ll be finished with tuning by the time I get those three done. Haha

 

[Batschisane52]

Found some modern historic at laguna seca footage. From a year or two ago, I think I’ve got the tune pretty much right on the comfort soft tires. They 100% are not pushing those cars (for good reason haha) so yeah I think 1:38-1:40’s is about perfect. I’m definitely sliding a lot more and not as smooth as the modern historic trans am footage so that makes sense. Right on. Pumped up to sort it all out, I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Tweak the tune, then start trying to match up the boss and challenger, I did a sneaky thing with them already and managed to reduce their torque so they’re already closer to the Camaro now. It’ll still be a long process to equalize but will be well worth it. I’d do more cars but I think I’ll be finished with tuning by the time I get those three done. Haha

I tried out my old Trans Am-ish Grid today...and I completly forgot, how bad they handle...

It consists of 3 Challengers, 2 Superbees, 4 Mustang Mach 1, 2 Mustang Bosses, 2 Gt350s, 3 Camaros, 2 Pontiac Firebirds and 3 Pontiac GTOs...
It is not accurate, because there were no GTOs and Superbees in the original TransAm series and the Firebird we got in GT7 is a newer version than that which took part in the series...tuned them all up to 649PP with RHs but I am thinking of tuning them down a bit...it's still fun, though I am nut used to that bad handling, but the field spreads out a lot after a few laps(but that is also partly because I set damage on high and I also apply fuel consumtion and tyre-wear)...when pitting for fuel is not a question, the Bosses are the fastest cars, followed by the Firebirds...the rest of the field is pretty even

As always in custom races, starting position has a huge impact...so if I would make a championship again, I would use the reverse startig order rule to balance that out(starting grid is the reverse race result from the last race)

 

[hawkeyez]

I find a lot of people try to really sort out the handling so it’s super tight and extremely predictable. In my opinion, the AC Cobra is perfect just the way it is but I’ve had people tell me that car is crap. It’s funny because sometimes we host a public lobby, we get annihilated because everybody has this tune or that, I limit it to the ac cobra stock and we are all out front with everyone else spinning out.

I like a car that is loose, but one you can save too. I almost have this Camaro sorted out. The stock muira? Forget it, that car is one unpredictable beast. I have a tune for it and I’ve for the most part sorted out it’s handling but it’s still not a competitive car, fun to drive though.

Will it be competitive with other cars in its PP range? Highly doubt it, but put everyone with the same tune and I suspect the same thing will happen that happens with the cobras. Nobody can drive em. Haha

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I’ll be making sure all my older cars with solid rear axles have no camber or toe adjustments. Slower cornering but easier to get on the gas once you straighten out. I think it feels better.

Still going to try comfort medium, this game is weird with its tires. One of the cars, can’t remember which, all I did was put one tire up on it and it was almost impossible to drive. It would grip until it didn’t and then you were toast. Try comfort mediums just out of curiosity.

You’re right about the lap times, I always wonder, would I be faster because there’s no risk of damaging the car or myself? Am I really that good to think I could match or beat a person that actually races in real life? Idk. Maybe, but put them in game and they might destroy my time. Haha

Thanks for the help and the articles, I figured out a few things, from this point on I’ll just tweak the tune until it’s perfect and then share it with friends.

Glad to help. Any other questions feel free to reach out. I do a bit of vintage racing; tin tops though, not trans am.

 

[Batschisane52]

I got an answer from the folks from the Historic TransAm Website and I share it with you:


Hello Oliver,

I hope this note finds you well. The folks over at the Historic Trans-Am website forwarded me your inquiry, and thought I might be able to answer your questions. With that, here goes..

What was run in period..

Both Goodyear and Firestone made tires available to the Trans-Am cars in the 1966-1972 era. In period, the Goodyears were called "BLUE STREAK SPORTS CAR SPECIALs." The Firestone's normally didn't have a model name printed or embossed into the sidewall, but their widest tires, as seen on the 1970 and 1971 Bud Moore Bosses in period used what they called a "Cantilever Sidewall" to fit a larger tread pattern on an 8" wide mandated wheel.

What we run today...

A very close representation of the original Goodyear tires are presently still available, and Goodyear still calls them "BLUE STREAK SPORTS CAR SPECIAL." The cars in Historic Trans-Am run them in the following sizes:

• Front 6.00-15 (I believe their product part number for this tire is D2724)
• Rear 7.00-15 (I believe their product part number for this tire is D2728)

So I guess Sport-Tyres would come closest to that in GT7( unfortunatly this is not an option when you do custom races unless you make a full grid with only Mustang Bosses...)

 

[hawkeyez]

I got an answer from the folks from the Historic TransAm Website and I share it with you:


Hello Oliver,

I hope this note finds you well. The folks over at the Historic Trans-Am website forwarded me your inquiry, and thought I might be able to answer your questions. With that, here goes..

What was run in period..

Both Goodyear and Firestone made tires available to the Trans-Am cars in the 1966-1972 era. In period, the Goodyears were called "BLUE STREAK SPORTS CAR SPECIALs." The Firestone's normally didn't have a model name printed or embossed into the sidewall, but their widest tires, as seen on the 1970 and 1971 Bud Moore Bosses in period used what they called a "Cantilever Sidewall" to fit a larger tread pattern on an 8" wide mandated wheel.

What we run today...

A very close representation of the original Goodyear tires are presently still available, and Goodyear still calls them "BLUE STREAK SPORTS CAR SPECIAL." The cars in Historic Trans-Am run them in the following sizes:

• Front 6.00-15 (I believe their product part number for this tire is D2724)
• Rear 7.00-15 (I believe their product part number for this tire is D2728)

So I guess Sport-Tyres would come closest to that in GT7( unfortunatly this is not an option when you do custom races unless you make a full grid with only Mustang Bosses...)

Thanks, my only problem with that is, I’m pulling 1:39’s pretty consistently now. That is 4 wheel drifting a few corners at laguna seca. They’re only pulling 1:45’s on average butI watched some footage and they’re not pushing it much. So I’m guessing, if they actually pushed it for a fastest lap time, could they knock like 6-7 seconds off their lap time?

I’ll try sports hard some time and see how much faster I am. I know I have the car tune correct unless the horsepower for that era is incorrect. Everything I’ve found suggests 440-450hp. I’m at 441hp. I might even be heavier than what they were!

 

[Batschisane52]

Thanks, my only problem with that is, I’m pulling 1:39’s pretty consistently now. That is 4 wheel drifting a few corners at laguna seca. They’re only pulling 1:45’s on average butI watched some footage and they’re not pushing it much. So I’m guessing, if they actually pushed it for a fastest lap time, could they knock like 6-7 seconds off their lap time?

I’ll try sports hard some time and see how much faster I am. I know I have the car tune correct unless the horsepower for that era is incorrect. Everything I’ve found suggests 440-450hp. I’m at 441hp. I might even be heavier than what they were!

I detuned my custom grid down to 500PP and use their default tyres...and exchanged the 2 Bosses for two Chargers, so all cars come with comfort tyres(the Chargers and Challengers with CSs, the rest with CMs), weights and horsepower(or kilowats as it is here over in continental europe) differ...I like that grid more then the 649PP/RH grid because it is more chaotic(much more sliding around) and less predictable...the Challengers and Firebirds are dominant now, the Camaros fall a bit behind...


Edit: Original post was saying, that it's the Chargers that dominate...that's wrong, it's the Challengers, the Chargers are too heavy

 

[hawkeyez]

I’m just trying to get the Camaro first, then tune the boss and the challenger to them strictly based off lap times for our Sunday races or just casual racing in general. I did run the Camaro one night and a couple other randoms ran the Camaro too. It was a fairly easy win most were wiping out. But I don’t know what they all had on their car because 567pp comfort soft definitely isn’t stock.

I might stick with stock vehicles for the custom races. I’ve got a fleet of Fairlady Z 432’s. I’d like to apply a tune I have but they do stupid stuff with the tires in custom races which I recently learned about. I think it’s dumb you can’t throw sports medium on all your cars while it just defaults to certain tires. Very annoying as I have a super fun fairlady tune I’d apply to all the cars but it probably wouldn’t handle worth crap on the tires they default it too.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Thanks, my only problem with that is, I’m pulling 1:39’s pretty consistently now. That is 4 wheel drifting a few corners at laguna seca. They’re only pulling 1:45’s on average butI watched some footage and they’re not pushing it much. So I’m guessing, if they actually pushed it for a fastest lap time, could they knock like 6-7 seconds off their lap time?

I’ll try sports hard some time and see how much faster I am. I know I have the car tune correct unless the horsepower for that era is incorrect. Everything I’ve found suggests 440-450hp. I’m at 441hp. I might even be heavier than what they were!

The Blue Streak is the Goodyear G7 I described in post 7, which nowadays is somewhere between CS and SH in GT7. The compounds in use at the time 55 years ago were closer to CM at best in compound, but it is important to remember they were(and still are) on bias ply tyres. GT7 is all radials, which are far less forgiving and operate at much smaller slip angles. Those shots from the Donnybrooke race I linked above where you see all the cars yawed through the turns is a trademark of the bias ply handling. Radials don't do that, and that is having a significant impact on how the cars feel in game compared to real life.

Your experience with others driving the cars isn't terribly surprising. These cars were and still are a handful. That's why I suggested for a series you might be best dialing in the cars to be most driveable for the masses and similar in lap times. I think most people are used to running not only stickier tyres but modern chassis and aero in GT7. Plus traction control, etc.

The quicker cars in historic Trans Am are running 42s and 43s at Laguna, like I mentioned. 39s might be possible with modern tyres and some tweaks, but they're defintely not putting around 7 seconds off pace. Driving a lap that far off pace, it's really really obvious. You can give up a couple of seconds and make it still look like you're going fast, but 7 seconds is nearly enough time to come to a complete stop on course and then continue. It's also important to note, a track like Laguna slows down considerably during the day as it bakes in the sun, sometimes a second or more, so race afternoon race times are often a little slower than morning quali. I linked this above in post 7, but pole last year was 42.9 - https://racehero.io/events/svra-trans-am-speedfest/results/1073750360#show

That was pretty cool of them to reply to an email. All the current historic trans am rules are published and available.

https://svra.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/SVRA_Tire_Regulations_1.18-1.pdf - Trans AM is group 6

https://svra.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Camaro_67-72.pdf - Camaro specific rules

Again, if there is anything I can help with, let me know. I can probably answer most of your questions, or at least know where to go to find the answer. I've raced with SVRA, VRG, VSCCA, HRG, Empire, and various other historic sanctioning orgs.

Edit: Corrected racehero timing link

 

[hawkeyez]

Well I think I’ll leave it, can’t go to comfort medium, it’ will be too hard to get any traction.

I’m going to stick with comfort soft and MAYBE try sports hard. I do have it sliding around corners on all four tires so it’s definitely close or about as close as it can get. I’ll just sort the handling out.

Well if one of their best is a 1:42 then if they push it maybe they’d get to 1:38’s easily. I mean I can run a very cautious lap and turn a 1:42. And to me the historic modern trans am’s look like they’re being quite cautious and I don’t blame them. The original Sunoco lightweight I think it was is running around the track too. The cars are $$$ so taking care of them first makes sense. They also look very very very courteous with their racing lines. Which is great but not like the original Trans Am races, some of those they’re drifting around corners side by side or one cars front end is inches away from the car in front of them around corners.

Thanks for the help, pretty sure that’s about as close as I’m going to get, just really hope I can tweak it so comfort soft are the tire as it’ll be about the closest to lap times as I can get and I suspect handling as well. Pushing it… I’m drifting.

Maybe I’ll share my tune on here when I get it the best I can.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Without the forgiving nature of bias ply tyres, you're going to need a lot more grip to put down the same amount of power on radials. With bias plys they would put down the power a lot better but are slower through the corners than the GT7 counterparts. That is where most of your lap time disparity compared to the real car is coming from. To get them to put power down as well as bias ply tyres, you're going to need much gripper radials. That's why I wouldn't focus too much on the lap times for a series, and maybe just try and get the cars as driveable as possible to get people on track. I do wish the game had bias options for old cars and race cars. When you change tyres; the game does change the tyre appearance, and the older cars have period appearing sidewalls and tread patterns. It would be awesome if they took the next step and modeled tyre options differently as well.

Essentially, it's always going to be a tradeoff because GT7 doesn't have any tyres that have the same grip and ability to put power down as early bias ply tyres. In order to get tyres that put down power as well as period bias ply race tyres, you are looking at Sports Hards or better; but those tyres have way more lateral grip than any of the tyres used on these cars. There is no way around it with the options available in the game.

These cars just aren't very quick, though. A close friend of mine runs a 65 Mustang in historic trans am on period equipment, and he runs 1'02s at Lime Rock. Right where they ran at the time. He also has an SM2 Miata which runs similar lap times on Hoosier R7s. I run 1'01s with 130hp on street tyres. 1'38s at Laguna is nipping at the heels of period prototype racers like the Lola T70 and Chevron B16, but again I don't think it is possible to get the cars to feel correct and run correct lap times with the tyres available in game.

I will probably hop on and take the Camaro for a couple of laps and see how it feels this evening.

 

[hawkeyez]

Without the forgiving nature of bias ply tyres, you're going to need a lot more grip to put down the same amount of power on radials. With bias plys they would put down the power a lot better but are slower through the corners than the GT7 counterparts. That is where most of your lap time disparity compared to the real car is coming from. To get them to put power down as well as bias ply tyres, you're going to need much gripper radials. That's why I wouldn't focus too much on the lap times for a series, and maybe just try and get the cars as driveable as possible to get people on track. I do wish the game had bias options for old cars and race cars. When you change tyres; the game does change the tyre appearance, and the older cars have period appearing sidewalls and tread patterns. It would be awesome if they took the next step and modeled tyre options differently as well.

Essentially, it's always going to be a tradeoff because GT7 doesn't have any tyres that have the same grip and ability to put power down as early bias ply tyres. In order to get tyres that put down power as well as period bias ply race tyres, you are looking at Sports Hards or better; but those tyres have way more lateral grip than any of the tyres used on these cars. There is no way around it with the options available in the game.

These cars just aren't very quick, though. A close friend of mine runs a 65 Mustang in historic trans am on period equipment, and he runs 1'02s at Lime Rock. Right where they ran at the time. He also has an SM2 Miata which runs similar lap times on Hoosier R7s. I run 1'01s with 130hp on street tyres. 1'38s at Laguna is nipping at the heels of period prototype racers like the Lola T70 and Chevron B16, but again I don't think it is possible to get the cars to feel correct and run correct lap times with the tyres available in game.

I will probably hop on and take the Camaro for a couple of laps and see how it feels this evening.

I did some digging and found the sunoco Camaro was nipping at the heels of the Lola T70.

I can drive the car just fine, is it a handful? Yep. But if you’re not gung ho on the gas before you straighten out, it’s totally driveable. As I mentioned before, nobody seems to like to drive the Cobra’s, anytime I throw that one in the mix majority of people are left behind, except for our group we’ve got. So I agree, most playing GT7 just like a grippy car with no give.

I do not, I find it somewhat boring. Acceralte, brake, turn hard, accelerate. It always just boils down to knowing your braking points mostly and when to turn in. The looser tunes have a lot more variables to consider and it’s easier to make mistakes which I believe makes for a more interesting race. You can hang out behind another driver, put pressure on without getting too close, then they lose it and you go by, but then maybe they catch up and do the same.

I’ll share the tune when I’ve got it sorted, I do think it’s pretty damn close. Yes the bias ply’s slide around more but I can get the Camaro sliding too. I don’t think it’s going to do that as easily on sports hard and if I put sports hard on the car, my lap times are going to get even quicker. The only reason my lap times are 1:39:500’s on average is not being able to just grip thru the corner or accelerate hard.

You can nail it and not get to much spin.

But yeah, I think project cars 2 emulates older tires better. I do have the Camaro handling close to the one in project cars 2, it’s just a little less forgiving.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

The T70 came in many guises. The V8 cars were well over 500hp and under 1800lbs, and were 40mph faster on long straights than the trans am cars. Current historics are driven at various speeds and abilities. I passed James Hunt's McLaren M23 a couple of years ago lol.

 

[hawkeyez]

Well this was the Camaro I believe that they were told to never bring it back to the track because of the acid dip paper thin panels.

Long story short, not much more I can do but tweak the existing setup. I will still try comfort mediums and sports hard just because but it’s abou as authentic I can get because if I just make it handle or grip well it kind of defeats the entire purpose of trying to replicate anything. I already have so rough trans am tunes on sports soft. They handle fairly well but theyre less horsepower.

Right now it’s definitely closer to the one in project cars 2 which isn’t a stick to the track monster of any kind, it slides around in a similar fashion. Sounds a bit better too. Can only get so authentic with GT7. Their sounds are better but still lacking sometimes. Physics are much better than it used to be. GT5 was a full blown arcade game. So I’m glad GT7 had stepped it up.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I slapped together as close to an authentic trans am Camaro as I could at 450hp, full engine build except no bore or stroke increase. 2588lbs stage 2 weight reduction. Also built a modern historic racing equivalent with max engine build at 488hp and 3000lbs. Spent a little time with both. The SVRA spec 3000lb example is a pig lol. I'm sure I could tune it better. It seems like CM is closest to accurate. The lap times also seem most appropriate(I didn't test it on the Camaro but there is a pretty big gap to CH) of the lot. They aren't all that different to CS in mid corner feel, though you do have to be patient and wait a little bit longer to go to WOT. That said, CS is probably a lot more palatable to most. And even then, it probably makes more of hardcore series with the nature of the cars.

Though, again, because all the tyres in the game have a bit more lateral and a bit less longitudinal grip than they should compared to the period real life counterparts; it's not perfect but that is just about as close as it gets.

The car is a lot of fun.

 

[hawkeyez]

Haven’t gotten around to trying comfort mediums yet. Is that 2600lbs correct?n I thought that was the weight of the Sunoco Camaro that they were told to never bring it to the track again? I thought they were more in the 2900lbs range?